Unemployment Benefits Running Out for Millions of Americans

Nearly two million people will have to find another way to pay their bills and put food on the table next month if Congress does nothing in the next several weeks to extend unemployment benefits coverage.

What those who voted overwhelmingly for Republicans and Tea Party candidates failed to recognize was that unemployment benefits, welfare, social security and worker's rights apply to all Americans regardless of political affiliation, color or creed.

"A lot of those on unemployment could get jobs."

Ha! Wanna back that up with some hard evidence? Because from what I see (and the states in the Northeast are not nearly at the rate of unemployment the the midwest is experiencing), I see lots of people I know who have been trying for over a year to get anything, even a shelf stocking job at Wal-Mart, despite being professionals.

I'm sick of this attitude that overwhelmingly casts the unemployed as lazy freeloaders. It's wrong on so many levels. And it's sick - to denigrate millions of people who through no fault of their own are out of work, while the corporations and banks sit on mounds of cash and refuse to hire. I think it's criminal that Americans would turn against each other while in such desperate circumstances.

As my mom used to say, "there but for the grace of God go I".

If would be very good to remember that your head or a head of a loved one may be the next on the chopping block. Have a little decency and be a human being, would you please?

"And it's sick - to denigrate millions of people who through no fault of their own are out of work, while the corporations and banks sit on mounds of cash and refuse to hire."

And also look down on them as they ask for a helping hand in the form of a unemployment benefit extension after years of being God fearing, tax-paying contributing members of American society.

Well, I'm glad they are hiring where you are. Some people do not have a choice but to stay in the location they are in the country. They probably have a home that they cannot sell, they probably have family members that they need to look after. Just because McDonald's near you is hiring does not mean that the millions of people who are out of work choose to be our of work.

Plus McDonald's doesn't pay a living wage. After taxes you'll probably bring home 300 to 400 dollars a week.

Try paying for rent, utilities, food, transportation and any other necessity on that amount of money.

You'd have to be subsidized by welfare, the local food bank, friends, family and anyone else just to survive day to day.

It's not a realistic choice AC. How much does it cost to rent an apartment where you live? Here in New Jersey you will lucky to find one starting at 700 dollars a month. That will leave you with 500 dollars for everything else.

Sheryl, plenty of people have had to move from the comfort and companionship of friends and families to find a job. I've move across various state lines 3 times in my life. I'd love to get back to where family is but Illinois is not hiring. So I make a yearly trip...

You do what you have to do to find a job.

"Sheryl, plenty of people have had to move from the comfort and companionship of friends and families to find a job."

Sounds like the Mexicans and other immigrants that have come to America to lift themselves up from their bootstraps. We've certainly lowered our expectations of what it means to be an American.

Thanks for reverting back to the late 1800's and early 1900's. I thought we were supposed to do better than our parents and grandparents.

Uh, a believe that a citizen resident of Illinois is also a citizen of Texas. Do you know something that I wasn't aware of? I didn't illegally move to France for a job.

R F. when I left Illinois and moved to Florida and set up that state as my residency, I was a Floridian. When I left Florida and came to Texas and set up residency, I became a Texan. I never once made a move to someplace that I was an illegal alien.

Nora when I moved from South Dakota to Florida I want a Floridian until I fullfilled the residency requirement...which for most states is 6 months.

"They pay higher than the minimum wage, which means they exceed the federal standard for paying their employees."

Let's see, a family of two in the SF Bay area needs to make about $40K a year to eat and live indoors. They'll do a lot of walking to get places. They're not going to make that much on two full time fast food jobs. Fast food work is for people who aren't depending on it to support themselves. Or if the employees are supporting themselves the fast food job is one of at least two jobs they hold.

Then they need to move to a lower housing cost area. I know what housing runs in S.F. It's ridiculous. Here in our area, west of Houston, I'ves seen ads for modest 2 bedroom apartments here for $350/mo. That's right at $4,000/yr. $7,000 for transportation and $8,000 for food and $5,000 for medical. Let's see, with each person earning $20,000 = $40,000 total. minus food, housing, transportation and medical leaves $16,000. Hmmmm

Of course, if you are over 50 years old it is harder for a person to gain employment. In fact, I recall someone here made a big to do pertaining to a news show that had 50 and over people on it having problems getting hired, and most with college degrees.

We moved 700 miles after losing our jobs (very good paying positions)...hubby was a 99er, he now gets No Check, cannot get hired and in the process of having to get a hip replacement..and no insurance, so at my age, I have to work more than one position, plus help run our new (sis and I) store...and we are Not making a profit yet...(can't even afford to hire help, we both do everything).

In our town, cheapest rent is about 500.00 a month without anything included (no low rent neighborhoods here, small town america), another factory closed its door and left 600 plus people without jobs, and three companies closed doors without telling employees. McDonalds and Burger King here (only have one of each) are turning away applications as they get over 100 a day from betwixt our town and next town over (that has NO fast food..small farming town)...farmers here, didn't hire anyone....

so those who say that there are jobs out there, don't live in small town america where there is no real job openings anywhere...most of our kids past 20 are leaving our town just to find jobs.

"We moved 700 miles after losing our jobs (very good paying positions)...hubby was a 99er, he now gets No Check, cannot get hired and in the process of having to get a hip replacement..and no insurance, so at my age, I have to work more than one position, plus help run our new (sis and I) store...and we are Not making a profit yet...(can't even afford to hire help, we both do everything)."

Nelli I'm so sorry to hear about the plight of you and your husband. I was hoping that by now all Americans would have affordable health-care.

But so many on the right have opposed such coverage. They act as if they will never need a helping hand.

Wishing you and yours the best. It's a shame that the majority of voting Americans lost their collective minds November 2, 2010.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost. And it doesn't distinguish between Republicans or Democrats, Blacks or Whites, gay or straight.

Nora, how do you feel about the jobs that have moved from Illinois to Arizona to get a better "deal" in Arizona than they can in Illinois? Or the people who come to wherever you live and take advantage of the social programs provided by your state and county, even though they may be legal residents. They actually take no risk seeking public assistance. Illegal Immigrants do, very big risks. Like felony convictions, deportation, and denial of entry to the USA forever.

Lloyd, Re:"What those who voted overwhelmingly for Republicans and Tea Party candidates failed to recognize was that unemployment benefits, welfare, social security and worker's rights apply to all Americans regardless of political affiliation, color or creed. "

Why is it you immediately see it as a party or class or race opposition? It is a disagreement over tactics to make it better for ALL citizens.

Lloyd,
I know plenty of people without work. Heck my husband went damn near 2 years withotu work when the .com bust happened. This is worse.
I agree spending needs to be cut, but I also disagreed with not extending the benefits.
If the jobs are not there then we need to look at why jobs are not being created.

Should I just remind everyone that Hershey shut its plant down at the park, and moved to Mexico.
Should I remind everyone that GM building a new plant, in Mexico? I can keep going with things like this, and this is further taking jobs away.

If stimulus bills were going to work they need to create more long term and permanent jobs than summer jobs for teenagers.

Mooch

Amana, hometow used to be Newon Ia. is now in Mexico. So is a major water heater company, who's name I can't remember.

Thank you Pres Clinton...

"Thank you Pres Clinton."

Nora we are not allowed to blame previous administrations for what ailes us today. The 8 years of failed Bush policies didn't happen. All the problems facing the American people occurred over the last 19 months under the Obama administration.

So why didn't he slow down the factory closings and moves to Mexico? The door was opened by his Democrat Buddy Pres.

Nora as an Iowan I can tell you Amana left Newton during the Bush administration.

"Nora as an Iowan I can tell you Amana left Newton during the Bush administration."


Nora are you trying to deceive us? Bad Nora!

I think every president all the way back to the ones I can remember and understand has had faults. I am guilty for blaming as well, but I try to remeber that no party is perfect and that the Republicans have just as many faults as the democrats.

With still lots of time on my hands I have done a lot of watching politcs and some of my own analsyt.....and in the process I feel that I have isolated myself from people here on gather, and that's because I refuse to associate with party and will speak out against a candidate if I don't feel they are right for the job. But that's me.

Above all else I want what is best for America. I want to see jobs returning to the states. I want to see politicians working together. I want to see the government doing more to help small businesses and taxing less.

Its easy to blame, its easy to point fingers, its not so easy to be part of a solution.

I worry about the newly controlled house spending tax payer money on something that they may not have the votes fore, and that is repealing the health care bill.

I was down right pissed when Congress could not compromise on unemployment extension. While unemployment barely pays for anything, its more help than a job at McD.'s .

With Nora's statement, I believe she meant that due to policies that were implemented under Clinton the company left for Mexico, even if it was during the Bush years.

We have a long way to go to climb out of this recession, and its time to put party aside and work together.

Even my husband liked the idea of Bill Clinton helping to work with congress and mediate. I am no fan of the guy believe me, but he knows how to work with people and he does have charisma. He is one of the few that was able to take a divided congress gain the trust and get work done. I think he could be a valuable asset to the Obama administration in helping to build a bridge between the parties. Now is not the time for partisian politics.

I strongly urge Congress to take the money back from Gates and Microsoft and put it to better use...its this kind of spending we do not need.

I think it is important to secure the borders and time for America to take a stance on illegal immigration. And this would mean fining businesses that employ people who are not citizens per day, per employee.

For students that come here for an education, I would like to see Visas granted to them so that they do not have to live in fear of being kicked out while pursuing and education. Their tuition money can help stimulate schools. Simple....but I'm looking beyond them. In other words if you are here illegally can not get amnesty for solid reasons, you need to become a citizen or go home. Simple as that.


I hope my rambling makes sense, I took a pain killer......
I apologiges for spelling and grammar errors.

Mooch

Yes, Lori and Lloyd, that move was under Bush AFTER Clinton "opened the doors" with his NAFTA!

Actually Nora it was Bush 1's NAFTA. Clinton signed it into law after he tried adding provisions to protect the regular people and failed.

EXCUSE ME???

Nora everyone knows this it isnt classified information. Bush started it Clinton signed it.

Ok I am just going to say this about NAFTA and whoever gets upset with me gets upset.

NAFTA started out to be a good thing. If anyone remembers the atmosphere in the midwest in the mid to late 80's remembers family farms were being foreclosed on left and right.

Our ag commodities price had hit an all time low. We didnt have a large market to sell to...we were giving surplus the government bought to china but the farmers werent able to sell it to anyone .

Bush 1 was pres at the time..reagan was at the beginning and bush inherited the mess from him.

he saw the problem and drafted NAFTA. I firmly believe that Bush had the american people in the midwest's best interest at heart. eliminate the tariff and you can sell the commodities cheaper and everyone can still make a little money.

What bush didnt count on was the greed of american corporations using NAFTA to ship jobs away from the USA to Mexico and using the no tariffs to sell the products right back here...cheap labor..cheaper product...no tariffs...bigger profit.

Clinton understood a little better what the ramifications could potentially be and tried to add some safeguards for the people in the bill but couldnt get it past the Repubs.

So while we denounce and blame Bush Clinton and NAFTA for a slew of problems we must keep in mind the original intent and the fact the legislation didnt fail the people...big business and greed failed.

I would guess a lot of people need jobs with health insurance, as well. I'm sure they take whatever they can find, but these retail stores and burger joints don't come with benefits. They hire part time to avoid all benefits. That's right up there with sending them overseas.

I didn't know that unemployment checks came with health benefits. That's new...

It doesn't come with health benefits. I comes with provisions that help keep Americans from delving into poverty.

I have no idea what you are talking about. That does not have anything to do with my comment.

You complained that the fast food and retail jobs did not have health insurance. So, the next logical assumption was since you think they're better off just collecting unemployment checks instead of taking a fast food job... do unemployment checks come with health insurance?

Sounds like an excuse not to work if the answer is no.

No logic here.

I am thinking the people who say there are jobs out there and people dont want to be bothered working for a living and take any job you can type of things...kind of like jj are the ones that are on disability or SSI and havent worked a day in their lives.

I know AC has a job but the other ones I am not so sure about.

This is the kind of logic and from the same type of person that people like jj display. In fact this is probably him.

Why do you, JJ, claim that there are all those free-loaders out there? Your GOP friends tell you that? Or maybe it was Lush Rimbough? Or FOX news/?

Actually, Elsie, we see them daily as we go about the community doing various chores for our jobs. They're sitting on the porch, milling around the stores, sitting around in parks, or standing around some street corner. You've seen them, you know, that is if you're honest.

Elsie usually the freeloaders are people they know personally like friends or family...I say apples dont fall far from the tree and get better friends.

i dont know any of these mythical freeloaders.

They're sitting on the porch, milling around the stores, sitting around in parks, or standing around some street corner. You've seen them, you know, that is if you're honest.

I admit I havent seen them but I work and have a family so unlike Nora I dont have all the time in the world to sit on the porch, mill around in stores, sit around parks, or stand on the street corner observing people....

Actually, we see them when we go into the "field" for our Civil Engineering firm. We go all over Houston, Austin and other major cities in this area for our engineering projects. L O L! I'll have to share that with the crews!

Hmm...Like most people I've known some people who didn't work much. I've known plenty of people who've received some form of government assistance. The vast majority of people on unemployment are not taking a vacation. They're living hand to mouth and eager to work. Trust me, even unemployment and state disability, the most lucrative programs, don't pay enough to rent an apartment in the Bay Area.

You could be quite mistaken on some of these people. I have a good job but am seen out for short times at this point because I am temporary disability due to a recent surgery and am not allowed to walk long distances or drive for any length of time. Just because you see someone at home or on the street does not mean they are lazy freeloaders. Some may be shift workers and also remember that not everyone works Monday thru Friday. I ither words your ideology is making you leap to conclusions.

You could be quite mistaken on some of these people.

You mean like Nora in the field with her civil engineering company mistaking people who could also be at work for freeloaders?

Lori, get honest, you KNOW what I'm talking about, you've seen them!

wwjd?

Nora I live in a very small Iowa town surrounded by a bunch of small Iowa towns...so no we dont have a big homeless problem. Nor do we have people milling about.

Guess no one had better ever sit in the park or a front porch or "loiter" near a store or parking lot or talk to a friend for more than 2 minutes should they meet on the street. Bet they didn't all know they were freeloaders. But they do now!

Nora, when I am not on the "field" (and I actually am on the field when I train in new merchandiser's throughout my district) and I am not needed at the store, I like to sit on my porch, drink a hot cup of coffee and talk to my neighbors, one who works THIRD shift, and likes to sit on his porch during the day before napping (oh, and he is 62 years old)

Or, my husband who walks with a cane long distance, but when he is in the yard likes to talk to his cronies....but I suppose hubby is a freeloader even though he is going in for hip replacement because he is standing in his yard.

Hope that statement wasn't stated at me as my hubby;s cronies are mainly retired men, or like one of his best friends who lost his leg during the war and pops over at least twice a week for a cold beer.
I don't know anyone on welfare, mostly because there is no welfare here.

I think there is a reason for parks. If one goes to the parks, places of recreation, one will see people recreating! Thank God for parks and recreation...How else would we smile through the madness?

RF I have noticed that too.

Char I hear that. Some of the best times I have with my kids are lounging at the parks.

So, if someone doesn't have a job because they are disabled, or can't find one, let's don't judge. Let them enjoy the parks, that's what they're for!

jj Myles Nov 5, 2010, 1:22am EDT
If they're on welfare when they are able to work. They are freeloaders. They should be ashamed of themselves but they aren't. They have no problem sucking up the Tax dollars at all.

JJ, that attitude went out in the '50's. You're way behind the times.

OK here is the thing.

There are 13 million people without jobs and approximately 3 million jobs. What that means are there isnt enough jobs to go around.

if you are on unemployment and voted for the Republicans knowing they have blocked pretty much every extention under obama but were fine with the extentions under Bush..you are a frigging idiot and probably should starve..save the oxygen for smarter people than you.

And to take any job is nonsense.

Many of the people that are unemployed are very educated. Now I have a BA in healthcare mgmt and almost a masters in psychology. If I become unemployed and applied at McDonalds there is no way they would hire me. They would know the minute a better job comes along I am taking it. Hiring and training costs money and they want someone who is going to stick around for a little while.

I've known guys who had degrees in engineering who took restaurant management jobs for a year or so. They weren't stuck with any of that elite mentality, they knew they had bills to pay and kids to feed.

This nonsense about everyone should get a degree so they can get a job will be a big disappointment to a lot of recent college grads. The world needs plumbers, and electricians and air conditioning technicians a lot worse than another liberal arts major!

Nora a restaurant manager job is a lot different than a cook or cashier job. Restaurant managers require college degrees.

This nonsense about everyone should get a degree so they can get a job will be a big disappointment to a lot of recent college grads.

While I realize that you might not value education but the rest of the world is not like the TP base...thankfully.

And plumbers and electricians have degrees..same for HVAC techs.

Lori, other than teaching, which I did for five years, my degree really wasn't that marketable. LOTS of degrees are not very marketable. Business degrees are a dime a dozen, the successful ones have to get their MBA. Even the technical degrees like geology and archeology have their limits in the job marke. If you're honest, you'll agree.

I'm all for continuing education, but not everyone is college material, unless they've dumbed down the colleges too. Oh, maybe they have, they now offer remedial classes at the college level. Oh well.

Nora I realize not everyone is college material and generally those people either dont go to college..get there and drop out or fail.

To just advocate not going to college isnt something a real teacher does...so maybe with your attitude it wasnt the degree that wasnt marketable but you...just sayin.

Now I know where the kids get the entitlement mentality from. Someone needs to teach reality to older adolescents. I also worked several years in H.R. and talked to so many who think they ought to have 6 figure incomes in an air conditioned office,; yet they couldn't pass a basic employment skills test. I saw some pathetic scores! That's what's sad and tragic.

Life is not a "win win" little kids soccer game and we do students a disfavor to teach them that it is. They all must study and work hard to earn the rewards

Now I know where the kids get the entitlement mentality from.

Maybe and with you being a teacher i realize now why many kids cant read, write, spell their name correctly and have test scores lower than a spider monkey.

the ones I know have AA or AS degrees. They are certified and have good jobs.

jj you can be certified and have a degree all at the same time.

Playing devils advocate Lloyd here but is there to be any deadline or cutoff on unemployment aid?

The last vote on a government aid package sent money to states that have no more control over their budget then the Federal government. While an argument can be made for the unemployment insurance, there was absolutely no reason to help states that are refusing to cut their budgets at such a cost to both taxpayers and as an insult to states that are cutting costs. Why are state employees jobs so much more important than regular joes anyway?

Anyway, things are going to have to cut-even many Dems now agree. When and where do we start? Every single item will have its defenders claiming this item helps/saves/protects etc.

When the number of available jobs, and the number of unemployed are approximately equal might be fair. Meanwhile what would you suggest we do about the 10 million excess job seekers (see Lori's comment, above)... just let 'em starve?

Gee did I suggest that (just let 'em starve?) Chuck?

But thanks for an idea of when cutoff might be considered. Its the only one I've heard anyone venture. How would it actually be measured though? Do any of us trust any government employment stats and their tendency to under count?

Chuck, if this country doesn't start doing something to encourgae business and corporations to grow rather than continues to reward sending everything overseas, there may come a time when we do witness mass starvation. Companies will not grow and hire if they cannot make a profit. No one works for free. Do you?

Brian if is wasn't for the fact that I'm a proud left-wing liberal Democrat, I'd say "Let them all eat cheese."

But I can't do that. I want only the best for all Americans, Democrats and Republicans, Blacks, Whites, Asians and Latinos, Christians, Baptists, Muslims and Jews.

That is why I'm a Democrat. Wouldn't have it any other way.

I bet many of those who voted GOP are going many of the same folks who are going to be dropped from the unemployment compensation roll. I wonder how are they going to like looking at a bare refrigerator or when their utilities get disconnected?

Lloyd I had to repost my comment there's a problem with my computer and it's been traced to the nut behind the keyboard. LOL.

Forgive and thanks for your response.

That budget axe cuts both ways and all the folks that want to cut America's social safety net, unemployment, food stamps, school lunch programs are going to one day get cut themselves in away it's poetic justice.

I personally don't want to see this but many people were convinced to vote against their own interest as a working person in favor of the interest of big business, they will get their reality check in a few months- chop, chop chop!

"in away it's poetic justice."

I always said they were voting against their own self best-interests. They sat back and sided with the same people who got us into this mess in the first place.

There's going to be some very anxious people come December. Hoping that Democrats will bail them out with a further unemployment extension.

MERRY CHRISTMAS REPUBLICANS. THE CHICKENS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST!

Why hasn't the GOP / Tea Party fixed the economy yet? (by FoxEwes.com)

Just heard that Boehner's fax machines are running out of paper... FAX YOUR DEMANDS!
(937) 339-1878
(513) 779-5315
(202) 225-07042

Llyod he's not even speaker, so while he has his work cut out for himself, I have to say I am not sure he can do a lot unless Pelosi relinquishes control.

Ok what I think needs to be done goes hand in hand.
1. Cut the spending.
2. Balance the budget.
3. Not waste taxpayer money on issues that can't be numerically possible. Before you bring something to the floor like repeal health care. Be sure you have the votes. Michele Bachman has said that repealing healthcare is a GOP priority. But if they didn't make enough gains in the house of people who voted yes to people who voted no it will be a waste of taxpayer money and time.
4. There needs to be a freeze in government politics pay, if not a paycut. simple as that. I'm tired of politicians http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978564701oting themselves a raise while the rest of America struggles.

Mooch

Have to remember the had majority of both the house and Senate Bush's last 2 years as well. And Bush started spending in the bailouts and stimuluses that continued under Barack.
The democrats that once cried to much spending now suddenly had control and a lame president that they could twist to get done what they wanted. Bush his last 2 years might as well have been a decocrat, that' show much he spent and ultimately through the spending raised taxes......I feel the Republicans are just as much to blame for the mess this country is in, but I feel that the democrats did have a chance to start to try to stop it an dwork towards the economy being fixed Bush's last 2 years of office, but suddenly it was supposedly good for America to be bailing out corporations, and industries. Sorry....I didn't buy it then, I don't buy it now.
Mooch

WTF has Obama done so far?

That was a great "line" wasn't it Doug! I still chuckle at it! "Obama has done more for the Republican party than any President including Reagan"

Maybe it would make sense if, instead of worrying so much about increasing peoples' dependence on government coercion with unemployment checks, how about they root out some of the completely avoidable, government-created obstacles standing in the way of economic growth and job availability?
For starters, cost-imposing arbitrary bureaucratic mandates could be lifted, thereby getting rid of major disincentives to expand production and embark upon new job-creating projects.
It would be a big help if they'd realize the counter-productive reality of wage control laws. Government-imposed price-fixing always does the same thing: it puts the supply and demand curves of the affected industries out of equilibrium. Minimum price laws result in unsold surplus; as the number of people willing to sell at that price will not meet with a sufficient number of people to buy at that price in order to clear the market. If this were not the case, then the government's chosen price imposition would be superfluous, as the market would have already established the chosen price naturally.
In terms of labor, wages and employment, this phenomena is manifest in unemployment. The unsold surplus is labor; workers and employers are prohibited by the coercive force of the state from establishing mutually-voluntary agreements on wage rates that would "clear the market," in other words, give everyone who wants to work the opportunity to work for whatever amount of wages their particular skills command on the free market.

If you insist on demanding wage control laws, then you should at least be honest and informed enough to understand that you are also demanding the existence of permanent class of unemployed; and the degree of which is directly correlated to the degree to which the politically-imposed wage rate exceeds the level of wages as they would establish on the free market.
If you want to demand the policy, then be prepared to accept the consequences of it, and stop complaining.

Excellent comment Steve! I've been harping about this for a long time..."root out some of the completely avoidable, government-created obstacles standing in the way of economic growth and job availability" Thanks for putting it so succintly!

Thanks, and thanks. ;-D

Only the price that one can get based on demand and that is one place where "free market", supply and demand fail society. Can you explain this a bit more R.F?

But you don't address the true cost of products and services.

I suppose you've discovered some heretofore unknown formula for discerning the "true cost of products and services," aside from the prices as expressed on the market; which already reflect the freely-manifested valuations of all pertinent parties, in terms of relative urgency of not-yet-satisfied wants and needs?

Only the price that one can get based on demand and that is one place where "free market", supply and demand fail society.

I never cease to be amazed at the sheer absurdity of some of the things written here at gather.com. Amazing.

Who says that the market price structure has "failed society"? By what imaginable, reality-based yardstick can the market price structure be said to have failed us?
Do you have any grasp on economic principles whatsoever? As you obviously do not, maybe it's best that you not humor the notion that your opinion should be considered as having any weight; particularly in the realm of public policy coercively imposed upon society.

The market price structure performs a genuinely indispensable function, and one that cannot be performed with any degree of relative success, any other way.
The social function of the market price structure is to channel the allocation of all the various factors of production -- labor, capital and capital goods, time -- the vast majority of which are capable of a practically infinite variation and combination of productive services, in such a way as to organize production to be in the best possible harmony with the ever-changing array of most urgent not-yet-satisfied wants and needs of literally hundreds of millions of unique individuals.

You speak of the market as a "failure," and yet it probably never crosses your mind that the very computer you are sitting at right now is practically a miracle which has been brought to you by thousands upon thousands of people, the vast majority of whom have never met each other, let alone have met you, yet all cooperated in harmony to produce the technological marvel you currently, and unthankfully, enjoy the benefits of; and none of those people did so out of philanthropy, or charity, they didn't do it because they care about you and want to serve you for the sake of serving you; they did it out of their own self-interest, and it was all made possible because the functioning of the market price structure served as a guiding light for all the countless entrepreneurs, middle-class savings account holders, wage-earners, workplace managers and investment capital managers, who all played a part somewhere down the line in bringing that computer to your desk, to show them what are the most value-productive ways to expend their time, energy and resources.

If you think that some gaggle of socialist central-planning bureaucrats are somehow equipped to channel the allocation of the scarce factors of production so as to best satisfy the most urgent needs and demands of countless unique individuals with their own unique, ever-changing scale of value; the best I can say for you is that perhaps your ignorance is surpassed only by your naivete.

Actually Steve, his intent is for companies to pay whatever wage he determines to provide him a secure and comfortable living irregardless of the number of others who want to do his job nor of the cost/profit/product demand.

They simply cannot get it into their heads that if the supply/demand price says something is $30, no entity can pay for the basic supplies of say $6 plus a $40 labor cost. They do not understand that just because the worker wants that much, he thinks he's "entitled" to get it, in spite of 1,000's of others who will do the same job at $10. That's the "social justice" of which he's speaking. The force that has closed so many plants here in the U S of A.

Good point, Nora.
It's really quite antisocial. It's a sort of extortion through political force. It's just someone determining that, since society does not value their contribution to production as much as they wish, then they will resort to applying to the coercive force of government to insure that they will receive for their efforts by compulsion, what others do not value their efforts enough to voluntarily ascribe to them.

If I produce a good, and ask $10 for it, but you only value it enough to pay $7, what right do I have to pull out a gun and insist that I will not take anything less than $10?
Naturally, either you will hold your nose and pay the $10, or more likely you will decline to make the exchange altogether.
The phenomenon of permanent unemployment, is a manifestation of more employers taking the latter route (declining the exchange), than the former (holding their nose and complying with the over-valued demands).

Has anyone checked out China, Russian and Vietnam with the labor practices there including the lack of workplace safety, wages dirt low and environmental laws that has the air and water nasty? If you're a fan of de-regulation and wanting government standing on the sidelines these places are paradise.

No nation goes to capitalism in one jump nor does any society transform itself in just a few years to the anti thesis of what it was.

All 3 of those mentioned nations are socialistic societies with 2 of them being historically without any experience of anything but dictatorial government. They are slowly-economically at least, jumping from the economic stone age of government central planning to something resembling early capitalism. That same stage was the root of our present system and way of life.

However a major difference is the type of government. None of them have governments that any one could call enlightened by any means nor ones with any sort of representation by their people. Still you sniff at what those people have now but it's both light years ahead of what they had and a promise of things to come.

The "free market" never reflects the true cost of a product. It reflects the price that products can be sold at based on demand only. There is no accounting in such a system for the ills created by the production of goods and services.

For Pete's sake, read a book or something, man.

Market prices are determined by supply as well as demand; they are determined by the intersection of the social aggregates known as supply and demand "curves"; prices always tend towards the point where everyone willing to sell at that price, meets with someone who is willing to buy at that price. Competition between buyers and sellers serves to steer market prices toward that equilibrium point; which always changes because the data always changes, supply is always dwindling or being replenished, and peoples' subjective valuations are constantly changing.

There is no accounting in such a system for the ills created by the production of goods and services.

The costs of production are always accounted for in the market price; costs directly determine how much will be produced, and how much is produced determines the market price in conjunction with the relative value the various members of society place upon each unit of the goods produced.

As for "ills created by production," that is what laws are for. The laws should protect all people and property from all forms of aggression or fraud.
If the laws fail to do so, it is not the fault of the market system. In fact, since a "free market" can only logically be defined as a society in which the laws protect equally the person and property of all, then any genuine "ills created by production" must logically be considered as infringements upon the functioning of the free market, not an integral aspect thereof.

It is pretty clear that most Republicans are making decisions based on the premise that government has no role in helping People in need of help. I totally disagree with that, particularly in an Era where so many more need help because Republicans decimated the economy.

I disagree with it because I care about all of the people in this country and because I believe it is to the benefit of the country to invest in its People and I also believe that is constitutionally backed up.

Just a quick note on the deficit question and the President: Obama came into an economic crisis. Putting all blame aside, his first duty to this country was to rescue it, recover it and re-invest in it -- and he has been. While doing that, he has a bi-partisan commission working on reducing the deficit, scheduled to report out 12.1, deliberately scheduled to come out after the election so politics could not screw up the process. The idea that he has been ignoring it and/or just increasing it is just plain wrong.

True. What can you expect from people who will say leaving the Bush tax cuts won't cost any money?

So what does one expect from people who think Bush's tax cuts cost the GOVERNMENT money Gail? The money is/was not theirs but it's citizens.

Tax cuts IF the Administration is serious about finally addressing the budget deficit, do work in improving the economy. What Repubs have typically forgotten is the other part of the equation, cutting costs too.

Just maybe Dems and Repubs will cooperate in cutting costs of government, it will not feel justified in taking more from it's citizens.

Do you mean Mark Zandi? If so, he is a registered Democrat, although he did serve as an advisor to McCain. And Zandi, I think, now actually supports an extension of the tax cuts.

And a dollar to help a businessman expand could keep giving for a generation.

Good points Gail BTW.

Charles -- just for the record when I use the term government I know the government is the people and the people's money.

My only point was that I have heard Republicans say continuing the tax cuts do not cost money -- I'm not sure what they are thinking but I'm guessing it's because it is not legislation where money has to be literally put out to pay for it so if you can't see the cost literally it is just not there. But of course there is a cost in continued loss revenue.

And I would just say I get what you are saying about tax cuts and cut spending, too, BUT, aside from that point -- whether the deficit is in the red or in the black if tax cuts create jobs then tax cuts create jobs and they didn't.

My feeling on all of this is simple -- Republicans gave the Bush Administration 2 terms, why won't they at least give the Obama Administration 1 year and work with them instead of working to nullify his presidency?

I'm not one to throw the un-American terminology around lightly but I find Republican behavior in Congress to be un-American.

And I find government takeover of the entire healthcare system un-American. And the student loans, why exactly did that have to be taken from the private sector?

I find both of them to be fiscally responsible in the long term and in the short term, respectively.

Here we go! Eliminate minimum wage? Let people go into a negotiating frenzy, each one bidding a job lower then the previous bid? The race to the bottom has begun! This will affect all industries and eliminate the middle class entirely! We have an economy based on consumers having enough income left after paying for food and shelter to buy additional goods and services! Now everyone will become merely a survivor, Not a consumer!

Eliminate minimum wage? Let people go into a negotiating frenzy, each one bidding a job lower then the previous bid?

And yet somehow, nearly all workers make more than the minimum wage. Employers cannot pay workers less than their labor services are worth. Just like you can't pay a store less than what their products are worth.

Why does Congress have to decide what the minimum wage should be? Aren't state legislatures capable of doing that? What wage a person needs to earn to maintain a good standard of living varies from state to state, so it should be determined by state legislators and governors.

Eliminate minimum wage? Let people go into a negotiating frenzy, each one bidding a job lower then the previous bid?

If your logic were correct, Thomas, then every worker in the country would be making nothing more than the federally-mandated minimum wage.
Just stop and think about it for a second.

Why doesn't every employer and every industry in the country conspire to keep all workers at $7.50/hr?

Wages are not determined by employer fiat, nor are they determined solely by the supply side of the equation. Wages are a price just like any other market price, and they determined by supply and demand, in all the various industries and for all the various types of skills, trades and specialties.

Minimum wage laws do not increase the overall social standard of living. They only cut the bottom rung off the economic ladder, creating a permanent caste of unemployed. That caste may not always consist of the same people, but it will always exist, so long as government coercion prevents the market price for various forms of labor from establishing itself at equilibrium.

"..Republicans killed a bill to extend unemployment benefits, provide aid to state governments and raise taxes on buyout fund managers, saying the measure would add too much to the federal deficit."


The Republicans don't give a hoot about the deficit.

The Bush tax cuts for the rich are supposedly worth $700 Billion in tax revenue per year.

If the Republicans really cared about the deficit, they would be FOR letting the tax cuts on the rich expire.

RF is that the same medicare that the teaparty vows to get rid of and the GOP vow to chip away at the entitlement programs by cutting into the budget?

Or am I thinking of a different Medicare?

RF And let's not forget about the aleged Medicare cuts that Republicans say they will restore. What a bunch of lying cowards.

They never said they would give it back. What they did was yell loudly that the Dems took it away. LOL That was true, but unfortunately, unless they repeal the law completely, they will never give it back as a separate provision. They can't, it would add to spending from the status quo. So you are right on that one!

I'd like to see unemployment bennies extended and the COBRA subsidy reinstated.
Funny how some of the Republicans I know have no issue about receiving these while they simultaneously bitch & moan about government spending.

I think the government needs a stable, dependable program of a set period of time to support both the unemployment and the Cobra. This needs to be done for at least an additional 6 mo while jobs are so scarce. There are still people being laid off everyday, and after this month they could receive only the original amount provided by their state if nothing is done. There is little hope the congress will supplement the 99 wks, unless it is a short term (six weeks???) for high unemployment areas. But I'm with you, people are in trouble with few alternatives, and money for them needs to be found. These are the workers, who; up until recently paid the government's bills, and they are engaged, and they VOTE.

99 weeks of unemployment are enough. I am open to help pay for retraining or to help in job placement. If you cannot get the job you used to have in 99 weeks you probably should start looking to make an adjustment in life or consider moving to a place that has jobs.

We simply cannot afford to keep paying people not to work, these benefits are meant to ease in transition not a lifetime benefit.

I have to agree that after 2 years those who must have a job to support their family need to go to where the jobs are, or learn whatever to get employed! It is quickly approaching the time the general public is feeling like you do, but first we need to do the RIGHT things to create jobs. We just got a new Governor in Fl, Rick Scott, and I am hoping he will institute some job magnet policies. Fl has a wealth of experience, especially the Space Coast. 300+ new NASA layoffs here today, with hundreds more yet to come. Several large employers have recently announced new projects here, but with all the layoffs ongoing it's just not enough yet. We have a technically educated workforce, and no unions, many co/'s are checking us out.
Still over 22% unemployment in our manufacturing sector........

I just reread the above and boy am I schizo. I make the statements back and forth. Pos, Neg, Pos, Neg. etc, etc, etc. I am a born debater, equally comfortable with either side. :)

Char

I Live in Florida also and agree with you on Rick Scott, hopefully we can attract new jobs with some policies that would bring new jobs and hopefully really put Florida back to work

Amen. Don't you LOVE Marco Rubio too? I think he is sooo sincere. I hope he doesn't get snapped up by the national stage. I want him in MY corner!

Marco Rubio is a great leader. If you look at what he did as House Speaker in Florida you know that he fights for his principles no matter what. I think Florida should be in good hands in the foreseeable future

When I hear him speak, it gives me hope....

this will have more people homeless,, and some will die because they can not handle life on the streets.

House Republicans Block Unemployment Extension

Looks like it could be a very cold Christmas for many Americans, who will be unable to pay their housing, heating or daily expenses once their benefits are cut off.

Remember, these are the same Republicans who have no interest in the deficit when it comes to providing an extension of tax breaks for the wealthiest one percent of Americans, which would result in over $84,000 a year per millionaire. I wonder how many people that could provide unemployment benefits for.

When the unemployment runs out, I bet that the homeless ranks will go up by 25 to 125% across America.
...And pets by the thousands will be let go to feral. If a shelter don't take them, and they are full now.
There are so many feral cats out now, that ST Louis is trying to decide if they want to trap them, and fix them, or put them to sleep.